I got the question below from reader Mark Lore. I have to say that I don’t know a great deal about the issues involved, so I’ll give my two cents and then leave it any other readers who can offer some information on these issues. In short, the questions are:
- Where should you study in China to make sure you get a standard Mandarin accent?
- What are some good Mandarin study programs in China?
Hi Hugh,
I recently discovered your blog via Sinosplice and have found it to be a great resource. I am a university student in Canada reading history, with a special interest in the shared histories of East Asia and the West. I am finishing my last course now and should be graduated by the end of the year.
My long term goal is an MA in Asia Pacific Policy studies, and pursuant to this I want to study Mandarin in China (also this gives me an excuse to spend some time in China; I have only been once to Hong Kong and Zhuhai about four years back and have been dreaming about returning ever since).
So far I have been looking mainly at the intensive Chinese programs offered at various Beijing universities. There seems to be a sharp divide between these programs, which are reasonably priced (at least by Canadian standards) at 8000-15000 rmb/semester (for 20-30 hrs/week of class) and the much more expensive private language schools. However, reviews seem to indicate that the Chinese universities basically stick to rote learning and memorization, relying heavily on the textbook, as opposed to some more progressive methods presumably on offer at some of the private language schools. I basically have no prior experience in Mandarin (although I do hope to pick some up before I leave for survival purposes) and am planning on staying for a period roughly equivalent to the spring semester in 2013 (Feb-Jun/July).
My question has two parts: Firstly, I have limited my research to the Beijing area as I am concerned about learning Mandarin in an area that is not (Standard) Mandarin first language, or picking up a region specific accent. Since, as far as I know, the Beijing dialect forms the phonological basis of Standard Mandarin it seems prudent to be studying the language in the capital. Am I correct in this assumption? I am not wedded to the idea of studying in Beijing, but at the same time I definitely don’t want to be studying Mandarin somewhere I can’t practice it outside of the classroom, and don’t want to burden myself with learning Mandarin plus a local dialect. Also, I am concerned about striking a balance between the cosmopolitanism of the main cities, which would have the advantage of more English language speakers should I need them, but at the same time not being somewhere where too many people speak English and I have less chances to practice Mandarin.
Secondly, can you make any recommendations with regards to Chinese language courses, in Beijing or elsewhere (depending on your thoughts regards the first question)? Money is of course an issue, but I would be willing to spend more if it is really worth it. I am not opposed to learning from a textbook, but at the same time I would prefer not to do a semester’s worth of non contextual grammar exercises. Have you yourself attended or heard anything about the Chinese language courses on offer at the universities? Any recommendations about specific universities would of course be welcome.
So, to sum up: Should I stick with Beijing to ensure a good accent? Or would a smaller city offer more opportunities for practicing Chinese; alternatively would I not be able to survive in a smaller city given I will have limited Mandarin upon arrival? Finally, what are the best options, to your knowledge, for Mandarin courses in China?
Thanks in advance for your help!
Best,
Mark Lore
I’ll give my responses to both parts of Mark’s question here, although I’ll readily admit I don’t know a lot about either. If readers and other visitors could provide some insight into these questions in the comments, it would be greatly appreciated.
The Mandarin accent issue
This sort of question comes up quite a bit around the Mandarin learning Web, but personally I think it’s pretty safe to ignore it for a couple of reasons. Firstly, pretty much anywhere offering a Mandarin study program is going to make some effort to use teachers with fairly standard accents, especially for teaching beginners. Besides that, there is a lot of migration in China, and any city is going to have all sorts of different accents mingling together, including standard Mandarin ones. So I would say you’ll get access to plenty of standard Mandarin in your course and contacts wherever you go. Besides that, you can always make extra use of recorded listening materials, which tend to have ultra-standard Mandarin accents.
Secondly, I don’t think it actually matters very much if your Mandarin is a little non-standard. To begin with it’s going to be a huge struggle just to sound Chinese at all, so I’d say you’d be very successful if you got any kind of authentic accent. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having a bit of flavour to your Mandarin.
The mixing with other foreigners issue
This is also a commonly asked question, and everyone considers it before they go to China to learn Mandarin. To be honest, I think that your social life is controlled far more by your attitude and approach than by your location. I suppose if you go to some far flung fourth tier city then you might have little opportunity to hang out with other foreigners, but realistically there will be an expat community wherever you go and it will be easy to get wrapped up in it.
It’s surprisingly difficult to avoid it happening, particularly because your university will most likely group you with other foreign students in your classes and accommodation, so you’re often meeting more foreigners than Chinese people from the start. It is annoying, but as with a lot of these things, if you really want to hang out with Chinese people you’ll find a way to do it, and otherwise you’ll settle into hanging out with other foreign students. Most people find it takes quite some time to get any kind of ‘Chinese social life’ going, because it’s hard to get into a network when you’re completely on the outside of it.
The courses issue
Personally I think that language learning is 95% up to the individual student and has little to do with teachers or courses; I actually think language courses can be a hindrance a lot of the time. Teachers and courses are useful as ‘enablers of learning’, but I don’t think they’re actually the main source of learning and acquisition. That comes from the student’s own efforts. Because of that, I tend to think that a course is a nice way to get some structure (read: long term visa) and it is worth it. But I would say just select a cheap university course and use the money you save to pay for cool services like podcasts, Skritter etc. Also have a look at learning Chinese for free or very cheaply with stuff that’s available online.
I’ve only ever attended two Mandarin study courses in China. The first was a four-week summer program at Heilongjiang University in Harbin, which was the standard classes with a textbook format. It was fine, I think. The second was for the third year of my degree, which I did at Ocean University of China in Qingdao. I was there from September 2011 to July 2012, and had several courses including newspaper reading, modern literature, classical literature, poetry etc. That was a little more specialised, with only two students in the class, and it was pretty cheap at 10 000元 for a year with 20 hours of classes a week. But it was arranged via my university in the UK and I doubt that it could be arranged personally by individuals.
That’s about all I have to offer on these questions. If you’ve got experience with any of these questions, please share what you know in the comments below.
If you found this useful, consider helping me out in return.
I arrived in China with similar concerns and did a year in Beijing at BLCU (two summer intensive courses and the “one year” program), starting from zero, although previously having learned Korean. I loved it, had great teachers, studied hard, and got a lot out of it. But I also realised that my concerns about getting a non-standard accent were misplaced.
Hugh’s comments are all spot-on. How hard you study is a far more decisive factor than which school you go to, how many local friends/how much English is speak is totally up to you and your personal discipline too, and Beijingers can be harder to understand than people speaking Standard Chinese in other parts of China. You won’t be sounding like a native for years anyway, so why worry about it at the beginner stage?
I don’t have any regrets about my year at BLCU, but if I was to go back, I might choose a course at a university in a smaller city, for me I would choose the Northeast because I hate the heat and don’t mind cold winters. Shandong would be fine too I suppose. That way you save money and can study for longer, and if you end up with a little local twist to your Mandarin, that can only be a good thing – the locals there will love it and people from other places will find it endearing.
Also, private language schools in Beijing are not as expensive as they seem at first glance when compared to university programs. When you take into account all the holidays, exam periods and associated time-wasting exam prep clases, registration days etc. they work out about the same. eg. BLCU’s summer intensive course says it is 4 hours a day five days a week for a one month course. What they don’t tell you is that it is only sixteen days of actual class, you lose days for level test, two exam days and graduation day. The “one year” course is the same, early Sept. to late July in the first place, it ends up being less than 8 months of regular classes. Of course you can use the time off wisely, but if you want to do the math and compare the cost/hour to Global Village in Wudaokou for example, they work out about the same in the end, and the private school environment may suit some people better.
Thanks for sharing your experience in so much detail – really useful!
hey, loved the article, thought I’d add my five cents!
When I decided to study in China I picked Qingdao because I thought that as a second tier city it struck the perfect balance between big and westernized (hence more comfortable to me) and small and “Chinese” (hence posing less of a risk to fall into the expat circle), while having a Mandarin accent that wasn’t too far from the standard. I still think all that is true, but I wouldn’t make the same decision again （although I got to meet some really cool peeps -for those who don’t know Hugh, he’s like Frankenstein tall in real life). The point is, now I find all those reasons to be secondary, while some other stuff turned out to be orders of magnitude more important:
-I don’t like “northern China” as much as I like “southern China”. So less motivation –> learning more ineffectual
-I didn’t have much common ground with a lot of the Chinese people I met in Qingdao, plus the whole 崇洋媚外 was pretty inescapable and made real relationships a bit more challenging –> less speaking Chinese, more falling into the cozy expat group. I think that would have been less of an issue in a bigger city, and it certainly it’s proving to be quite different now that I’m in Taipei.
So I guess what I’m trying to say is: come to Taiwan, you know you want to! (The cost of life can actually be very similar, don’t trust the naysayers!)
Hmm, who is this anonymous commenter that met me in Qingdao? And was Frankenstein particularly tall?
Thanks to everyone for the very thoughtful responses. Sam and Hugh’s point about accents is particularly well taken; I will sound like an English speaker trying to speak Mandarin for a long time before anyone thinks I speak with a regional accent!
Your collective experiences seem to indicate that, for the most part it is your own initiative that will determine how much progress is made far more than the school/city you choose. Moreover it seems that personal preference is more of an issue that anything in choosing which city/province (Or Taiwan! Tempting, but I think I should learn simplified characters…or is this another myth?) to study in. Definitely all things I will take into account when making my decision.
Oh, drats, forgot to sign my name or anything… I’m an old man at heart, I don’t get you younguns and your ways with computers. Trust the post had enough of a Spanish stench to it for you to renchulai anyway?
(Sure he was, he was enormous. Oh, you’re not being all ‘Uh-uh, Frankenstein was the doctor, not the monster’ are you? Cause it should be illegal to say that)
Heh, I suspected it was probably you! As for the Frankenstein thing, it did cross my mind, but as far as I knew neither of them were very tall so it didn’t matter.
Hey Mark! I´ll reply to the simplified VS traditional question before Hugh gets a chance to, because I suspect he might have a different opinion
The way I see it, it doesn’t matter at all which system you pick (unless you already have a very clear idea of what materials you will read etc), but if the circumstances allow for it you should avoid mixing the two at the beginning. That is to say: first learn one system to near proficiency (or to a point where you feel quite comfortable with it) and after that, picking up the other one should be a piece of cake -that’s what many native speakers do. Otherwise I think it will slow down your developing reading skills, and you want to be able to read as early as possible cause often that will really help speed up your language acquisition process.
Remember also that, for most people, in ‘real life’ you’ll only very rarely need to write the characters with pen and paper, so it becomes more more of a recognition problem (which is much simpler). So if you’re half competent with simplified characters, for example, a few weeks of reading comic books online will get you up and running with your traditional characters. And from what I hear, going the other way round is even simpler.
hope it helps, and best of luck with your studies!
I think I do actually agree that it’s better to learn one system first then the other, but I had to learn to read both from the start by force of circumstance (university course requires it), so I thought I might as well learn to write both as well. Plus Skritter makes it very convenient to include both in your studies. But yeah, it really does mess with your head trying to do both, mostly because there’s even more potential to get stuff mixed up (i.e. cross-set similar characters).
Great advice from Hugh and other readers!
I live and study in Guangzhou my self which is the place for non standard Mandarin, but I have never thought it as a hindrance for my studies. Sure the local accnt does affect my accent, for example I never speak erhua. But all the teachers I have pretty much have a standard accent. In any university there are also students all over the country so you will be able to hear more and lessa standard accent. You don’t need to learn the local dialect if you don’t want to.
Also I think it’s quite cool to learn some slang words that come from the local dialect, it makes you sound more Chinese
Here in Guangzhou there are of course many words from Cantonese which are used in Mandarin as well.
Getting stuck to the expat bubble is easy anywhere if you let it happen. And also you can do your best to have the most Chinese environment and surroundings you want to. For example hang out with the Asian exchange students, they often communicate in Chinese,not in English. Join any clubs organized at the universty to meet loca; students. In the end it’s up to you how much of your input and output will be in Chinese.
I believe that Guangzhou has less English speaking Chinese people than Beijing or Shanghai for example. Even though many foreigners would never consider Guangzhou as a place to learn Mandarin, I found it to be an excellen city!
Down with erhua!
Nice tips there, thanks Sara. Especially about hanging out with the other Asian students – I found that the Japanese and Korean students in Qingdao usually used Chinese as a common language as well (plus you can have a go with a little bit of Japanese and Korean as well!).
Hello ! I’m currently on a gap year, studying Chinese at Qinghua University in Beijing. I arrived in August and I will leave in June. I arrived in China with the HSK 3 and I think I’ve made a lot of progress since I came. Qinghua has excellent teachers, classes are small, … I’m really happy with my program, it is worth the money.
I live in one of the 5 international dorms of the university so yes, I hang out with international students (probably more than I should) but I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. I have learnt so much about other countries and I have made great friends. But I also hang out with Chinese people, although not in Qinghua; I’m part of a dance troupe. Honestly, I think it’s amazing. I get to socialise in a great environment. During dance practices, you just don’t have time to prepare a nice sentence in your head, you just have to speak – so ” lift your foot higher ” comes out in Chinese. Basically, my advice is to try to join some kind of association totally unrelated to language partnering, to really practice Chinese in everyday life situations.
Some really good points there, thanks for sharing them!